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🎙Podcast: Why diversifying internships is key to better representation

“Something I talk a lot about is walking down the hallways of Congress and realizing that no one really looks like you. And that’s something that we don’t talk enough about—how the decision-makers, and not just in government, but you talk media, healthcare companies—they don’t reflect our diverse communities. And we end up paying the price for that.”

Carlos Mark Vera is a labor entrepreneur, activist, and co-founder of Pay Our Interns, the only organization in the United States fighting to ensure all students—especially Black, Latinx, and Native American students—have equitable access to professional career paths through the implementation of paid internships countrywide. Carlos was raised in California, by way of Colombia, and moved to Washington, D.C., to attend American University. While there, he navigated feelings of isolation and frustration due to the lack of access afforded to him and others because of their background. Once he landed his first Congressional internship, he decided it was time to do something about it. That decision put him on the path to where he is today.

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This podcast series is supported through a grant from the Citi Foundation and is presented as part of The Inclusive Social Entrepreneurship Initiative. With the support of the Citi Foundation, Echoing Green will accelerate leaders of color and leaders who represent communities of color by providing financial and leadership development support, creating visibility opportunities to amplify their voices and stories, and connecting them to Citi employee volunteers for advising and mentorship.

For more episodes of On Course: The Podcast from Echoing Green, visit anchor.fm/echoinggreen.

Episode Transcript

Eric
Hi, and welcome to On Course, the podcast from Echoing Green that explores social entrepreneurship, and the pieces of people’s lives that they tend to leave out of their bios. Echoing Green is a premier global investor in new leaders who are boldly working to change the world, providing fellowships, community, seed stage funding, and strategic support at that critical stage where they’re just trying to get off the ground. My name is Eric Dawson. I’m a father, husband, social entrepreneur, storyteller; and I have the distinct honor of serving as a chaplain for Echoing Green. I, along with my colleagues support fellows in their spiritual and emotional well-being as they mediate between who they often feel they need to be publicly, with how they often feel privately; I’m a fraud, I’m not good enough, I don’t know what I’m doing. On course, is about the journey that these leaders take from the moment they decide to act, to create to change.

My conversation today is with Carlos Mark Vera, Co-founder and Executive Director of Pay Our Interns, the only organization in the United States, fighting to ensure all students, regardless of background, or socioeconomic status, have equitable access to future career opportunities through paid internships.

Carlos, I actually want to start from the very beginning. Take me back to a moment in your childhood that you would say has defined who you are and what you’re passionate about. It could be something big, could be something small, but take me back to that moment of little Carlos; and when what he was like and what was he passionate about?

Carlos
As a child, I was really passionate about Greek mythology, and anything to do with the Tudor family. So any history about European battles, mysteries, castles—I consumed that all the time. I actually got in trouble for reading too much. So as a child I would have that little light that you have on top of the book, and I would just read it, in the night.

Eric
So your big rebellion as a child I’m gonna sneak out and look up some Greek gods.

Carlos
Yes.

Eric
And where do you think that came from? That sort of love of both history and mythology, that curiosity?

Carlos
I think it’s the ability to reimagine things, that you know, they can be different from what they are. And it’s kind of a way to escape from what’s there sometimes. So I think kind of, that’s where my passion comes from.

Eric
So, so this love of fantasy that this, this imagining worlds that either no longer exist or never existed, what was what was your world like? Like, take us back to the, to the sights, smells, textures, your family, your schools, what what was your what was that space, like?

Carlos
I grew up in Colombia for the first six years of my life. And I actually had a pretty stable childhood. I think a turning point for us was, as you all know, living in Colombia was not, you know, a walk in the park in the 90s. It was no Disneyland. There was a lot of violence with the FARC, the cartels, and I believe I was like, five, and I was visiting my grandparents in Caicedona. And, you know, it was a summer night, the sun was coming down, we were watching TV. And then out of the blue, the FARC, which is a paramilitary group, you know, came down from the mountains and took over the entire town. And basically, that night, we kind of had to hide under the bed, not knowing what was going to happen. At that moment, my parents decided that we needed to move to the United States. And then we were very fortunate that we had some family here, we had the support, which you can’t say about a lot of people. And then yeah, we came here when I was six years old.

Eric
What was that moment like coming to United States from Colombia? What was that transition like for you?

Carlos
I had been here before. So it wasn’t that much of a shock, I think for me was classes. I was getting D’s and F’s in my English classes. And my dad was getting mad. And I was kind of like, well, you know, when you’re learning a whole new language, it is what it is. So I think that’s something that I remember pretty quickly. The other thing is personal space. You know, in a lot of Latin cultures, were familial. It’s all about the community, you hug people and everything. Here, it’s not always the same thing. And I remember my teacher telling me Oh, you’re in my personal bubble. And I was like, what bubble? Like I was actually looking for a bubble.

Eric
So you show up in the US as a mythology-loving, hugging kid and you decide to go to American University which feels like going to DC, going to that school, was a significant driver for what you’ve chosen to do. And in terms of your social change work, what was it about American? What was it about DC that drew you?

Carlos
So I think the moment particularly that kind of like, lit a fire in me for you know, social justice did not come until late middle school like early high school. And it was kind of where, as you all know, most folks, a lot of folks went through financial issues during the 2008 financial crash, and my family was, you know, no different. We had our house foreclosed, we had medical bills. And in that moment, I remember my dad sitting me down, because, you know, even though like, my parents came from working-class backgrounds, my dad was doing well, back then. And he basically said, hey, if you don’t find scholarships, you know, to go to college, you’re not going to go to college. And then having to move into public housing, and really seeing the other side of America that I don’t think we talk a lot about. So for me, I guess it was kind of living through those experiences that really opened my eyes. And then in terms of AU, it really came down that you know, I see politics as a process of who gets what, right, like who’s trash can gets taken out, whose roads get paved, which community hospitals get funded or not. So, in my eyes, you know, if I came to DC, I could experience all of this firsthand.

Eric
And what was AU like for you? What was the experience of being there? And being in DC? What do you love? What drove you crazy?

Carlos
Initially, it was not easy. There were times where people kind of throw microaggressions my first year, especially like, I had two professors call me Jose or Juan accidentally. No, my name is Carlos, like, I don’t, anyways! Yeah, stuff like that. Or I remember a moment where we were talking about poverty, which is kind of ironic, you know, when you’re going to school that cost like $50,000 a year. And someone raised their hand and said that people were poor, because they were lazy. And if they worked harder, they’d have more money, and, you know, my blood was boiling in that class. I actually -shocker – spoke up, and, you know, basically told them that I have family, friends that work six, seven days a week, 13 hour shifts, you know, how dare you say that. That’s not how life works. Or another class where we talked about minimum wage. And I asked everyone, I said, raise your hand if you or your parents have had a minimum wage job, and none of them could. And I said, it’s really easy to discuss these things when you’re actually not living it. So it was tough. Also, I had to start working immediately. And the friends that I had built, they stopped inviting me to things saying, oh, you’re just so busy. And I’m like, well, I’m sorry, you know, I can’t ask mama or daddy for $1,000 checks. So I think initially, it was tough. With that being said, I think what kind of drove me is look, you know, we may have had different high school experiences, you may have gone to a boarding school, but we’re at the same college, there’s no VIP, you know, access at the Career Center. So it really is up to me to take advantage of all these resources. And I did that.

Eric
So tell me about the decision to do an internship. What was that like? What drove that decision?

Carlos
It was all very much accidental. I was invited to Congress for a press conference on youth unemployment. I was invited, actually I didn’t even have a full suit. I showed up without like a tie or things. After the press conference, I’m walking down the hallways with my friend and I see the name Joe Baca, who was one of my representatives. And I said, you know what I’m gonna walk in. And my friend was like, what are you doing? And I was like, he represents me. I don’t see the issue. I walk in and there’s two people there. I start talking to them. I realized one of them is, you know, the head honcho and I said, hey, is there any way I can get involved? And she said, we have internships. So I went to the Career Center, they helped me create a resume, which I had never really done. I sent it to her and then I got it.

Eric
So talk about your internship experience. What was it like? What did you learn from it? What did you love? What was hard?

Carlos
I did like six internships, three unpaid Congress, the White House and the European Parliament in Brussels. The first one was definitely not easy. You know, when they said it was unpaid, I was like, okay, well, it is what it is, right? Like you have to pay your dues. But you know, I couldn’t ask my parents for financial help. So I ended up working a side job on campus, interning about 30 hours a week, and then taking six courses as a 17 year old. So as opposed to like really enjoying the internship and going out with other people, I was basically fighting to not fall asleep. It’s something I talk a lot about. It’s also like walking down the hallways of Congress and realizing that no really looks like you. And that’s something that we don’t talk enough about how the decision makers – and not just in government, but you talk media, healthcare companies – they don’t reflect our diverse communities and we end up paying the price for that. You know, it wasn’t until my third unpaid internship at the White House where you had to wear a suit every day, and I only own one suit. So my whole family pitched in, helped me get another one. But one time someone made a commentary like, don’t you have other clothing. And that, of course, you know, it’s not something you want to hear. And it just kind of just showed like one little small thing where like, it costs a lot of money to do these experiences.

Eric
My name is Eric Dawson. And this is On Course. I’m speaking with Carlos Mark Vera, Co-Founder and Executive Director of Pay Our Interns. We’ll be back with more after a short break. Welcome back. I’m Eric Dawson and this is On Course, the podcast from Echoing Green. Today, I’m speaking with Carlos Mark Vera, Co-Founder and Executive Director of Pay Our Interns. So much of your work is about access. Right? And access, there’s so many access points that you yourself were navigating, right? Whether it’s the access to education, housing. Tell us about the importance of access when it comes to internships, like what is it about internships that are so essential for accessing power, privilege, experience?

Carlos
I think unless you’ve you know, you’ve recently done an internship there is this misconception that it’s kind of like being part of book club. Like it’s a nice experience, right? But it’s not a necessity. And you know, what I would say is, there was a study that came out this summer showing a disparity in terms of access to paid internships. So for example, 74% of white students had a paid internship. Meanwhile, for black students, it was only 6%. Additionally, internships on average can cost $6,000 for three months when you include you know, rent, transportation, travel. And then you look at like the racial wealth in America in white families have 10 times more than black families. Some could say, well, then just don’t do one if you can’t afford one, right? Which is kind of a sensible thing to say, the problem is in 1992, only 17% of college students in America did an internship in 2007, it jumped up to almost 70%. So it’s basically become a requirement. That is what employers are looking for. So if you don’t have the money to do an internship, and then you graduate, yay, you have your degree, but you don’t have the experience, you’re not going to get a job. So that’s kind of some of the reasons why internships are so important to have on your resume.

Eric
I’m struck in your telling Carlos, about all of the barriers that are, you know, hidden, not so hidden, around access. Right? And so I’m curious, you start an organization from that experience. What was that? What was that moment of obligation? What inspired you to organize to get started?

Carlos
That exact moment in terms of where I said, hey, something needs to change was when my mentee mentioned that he had to skip out on buying groceries, to pay for his dry cleaning costs for an unpaid internship, the same one that I had done. And it was at that moment, I said, hey, we need to, you know, really break these generational curses. So I decided to quit my job, which my parents thought, you know, I had kind of lost it. And I launched Pay Our Interns exactly four years ago.

Eric
What was that conversation with your parents link? I’m always fascinated by those of us who, whose families really struggled to give us access, to create opportunities particularly financial stability, and then we come back and say, sorry, I’m actually going to do something that is that is unpredictable, financially unsustainable, and might risk my health and well being.

Carlos
They were like, you have a job with Van Jones, that commentator from CNN, it’s a pretty good job. You have these various perks, like why are you leaving that for something that in many ways, they don’t view that as a career. Like that in my culture, that’s just not a viable option. Like it’s very much quote unquote, black or white, like you’re either a doctor, a nurse, a teacher, or police officer. There is no such thing as being an advocate or social entrepreneur. So they did not take it lightly. But kind of as you can see there’s a theme here, when I feel a deep conviction, I will do as I please. And so I so quit my job.

Eric
So you leave a job with a ton of prospects and perks tell us about the beginnings? What was it like? What do you do first?

Carlos
People say, well, wow, like, you know, how much money did you guys start with? Because we, you know, we had an impact pretty quickly. And one thing I always mention is, I had no idea what seed funding is. I thought it was like something you’d garden with, right? Because you know, usually you go to several investors, you kind of pitch your concept or idea, and then you get money, then you do the work, we did the opposite. We launched this was very much like, very grassroots, there’s a Facebook group that, you know, ultimately started to become like an actual organization. I knew this was not going to be easy, right. And in that time, there is deep polarization. I mean, it’s still bad, but back in 2016-2017 it just did not seem that feasible. You know, like trying to get insurance paid is kind of like the UN World Peace. Sounds great, but it’s not going to happen. But that experience that I had done at American, you know, advocating for workers really showed me that, you know, you don’t need a lot of wealth, or power or name, to create change. My co-founder, Guillermo, myself, both were unpaid Hill interns. So we decided to kind of start there, the issue we had was that there was no data on who paid and who didn’t. And, you know, it wasn’t like an accident. It’s kind of intentional. So it really made our, our job difficult, right? Because there’s only, you know, so much pushing you can do with stories, you need that data. So we ended up actually surveying all 540 plus offices.

Eric
And what did you discover?

Carlos
We discovered that in the House, like about 90% of interns, internships were unpaid. So it was it was pretty bad. And then with that data, we went back to offices, and we kind of leveraged that and said, hey, you know what, we’re gonna go to the media, and basically call you out. So you have an option, do you want to be in this group A or group B? So we kind of used that, and it definitely worked. We released a report June 30. And we kind of, you know, started building from there.

Eric
And what power did that report have?

Carlos
This is where I’m going to brag, but a lot of reports are kind of made, and it just kind of collects dust. Our report listed who paid and who didn’t. And then it provided recommendations in terms of a long-term solution, where we recommended there be a fund that every office can access to pay interns and only for intern pay. And so the report came out June 2017. And then by May 2018, a group of senators had, you know, read the report, they kind of came together and successfully pushed for $5 million to the Senate, and then the house, it was $8.8 million. So most reports, can’t claim that where you know, they kind of come out and a year later, we made history.

Eric
So your work brought $12 to $13 million of compensation for interns in Congress.

Carlos
The first year now it’s at $17 million. It’s been increasing.

Eric
What does that feel like to just say those words?

Carlos
I don’t know if there’s a certain emotion that can really encapsulate how I feel. For me, it’s more kind of like, we did it. Regardless of all the challenges Guillermo and myself being college dropouts, having no money, you know, no really connection to do this work, and we did it. So it feels great however, there’s still a lot more work that we want to do. But definitely like, you know, there are some days where I kind of feel like crap. But I’m like, you know, I did that. So it feels good.

Eric
I imagine one of the challenges of finding that level of success so, so quickly – and I’m sure it didn’t feel quick, and I know it took a lot of work that was 2018 – what have the past two years been like, like, what do you do next after a project like this?

Carlos
Surprisingly, a lot. We thought once that happened, like, hey, we’re good. You know, we can kind of do something else, do states or nonprofits. The problem started with implementation. Right after the President signed the bill, we had over 80 offices reach out to us from December to January 2019. Basically saying, hey, how much do we pay interns? Where do we get diverse talent? All these questions, right? So we actually end up creating a guide. Interestingly enough, we were not getting paid for this work which that part I think was frustrating. So the issue now and one thing that you know why I continue doing this work is, I think we need to move past saying pay interns to saying, well, how much are you paying and who is benefiting from these paid opportunities because there are several organizations that do pay interns and pay them well, but they’re only recruiting from a select few schools, and that’s – in Congress its the same way, you know, where some members 40-50% of their staff come from IvyLeagues. So that’s really been the next challenges where it’s like, okay, this is great money, but it’s not enough for the amount of interns there, and sometimes is still going to the children of donors. So you know, our work very much continues. Over the last two years, we’ve actually also pushed presidential campaign to start paying, we did that successfully. So Senator Kamala Harris, Joe Biden, Beto O’Rourke, Senator Elizabeth Warren, they’ll all now pay. We’ve pushed nonprofits, and it’s also kind of been this domino effect, where people see what we’re doing and then they kind of want to replicate that in their own community. So there’s a college student named Jordan, who was an AmeriCorps fellow in the office of the mayor of Philly. None of the interns there were getting paid. And he basically organized them, kind of did his own study saying, well, how are you surviving, since it’s all unpaid, and launched his own campaign. And you know, when we saw that, we partnered up, we amplified his efforts. And now the mayor of Philly has a paid internship program.

Eric
That’s Carlos, Mark Vera, a labor entrepreneur and co-founder of pay our interns. We’ll be back with more after a short break. Welcome back. I’m Eric Dawson and this is On Course, the podcast from Echoing Green. I’m speaking to Carlos Mark Vera, labor entrepreneur and Co-Founder of Pay Our Interns. What’s next for the organization and for you? So so five years from now, when we do a follow-up podcast what stories are you going to tell?

Carlos
I mean, I don’t think I’m going to be here forever. I’m doing it now because I love it. As I mentioned, it is four years now, which does seem like a long time. And I was actually thinking of going to grad school this upcoming year. But it wasn’t until the last three -four months that we’ve actually received two large grants and fundraising has really picked up and long story short, like next year, we’re actually going to have the funding, we need to have the team and resources we require to do the work. So we’re really excited in terms of what’s next is we’re pushing for the federal government to pay interns, and in the media arts worlds, nonprofit sector. So there’s still a lot of, you know, of things that need to change, also, intern protections. In many states, there are no protections against sexual harassment or discrimination for interns since they are not paid. So there’s a lot of work to be done.

Eric
Speaking of work to be done, we’re in the middle of a pandemic that’s affecting every element of the workforce. What does this moment mean for you and your work?

Carlos
When March came, we were going to launch this program series where we were traveling across the country with certain members. And that all got scrapped, right, which was a lot of sponsorship money that was lost. And we had actually been rejected from several grants those prior months, which a lot of people were like, oh, really, because like you’re on Forbes, 30 for 30, you’re an Echoing Green fellow. And I’m like, yep. You still sometimes face the same issues. So there was not that much money in the bank account. And I went home. I took a pay cut, like I mean, I only made I think, $500 and $1000 March and April. In terms of our response, we had over 150 students reach out being like, hey, do you guys have money to for so I can fly back home? You know, I need a place for housing because in some ways, they’re having a combo of, of problems where schools are shutting down, right, they’re booting out their students and internships and jobs are being canceled. And there really is like no central group that does this work in terms of like giving money and nor do we right. So we actually launched a campaign called #SaveInternships. And we estimated that up to a million internships will be canceled this summer. And the whole premise of it was to create an Intern Relief Fund where you can apply and you could ask for from $150 to $1100 and then be – really work with organizations to convert it to virtual as opposed to in person. People were kind of dubious of Part A because they’re like, that’s not what you guys do. And in some ways, it kind of went against everything we believed in, right because we were pushing for orgs to pay their own interns, but we’re very cognizant that this is a need right now. No one is kind of jumping up to the plate to do it. So we might as well do it. And our intern relief fund started small. You know, and then we ended up raising about like $25,000 throughout the summer. And then just last week we got $150,000 from a foundation for our fund.

Eric
Amazing and what has been the response from your community? The interns? What do you see out there? What are the trends?

Carlos
I mean, the impacts of the pandemic are devastating. I think for a lot of folks – Internships are kind of like not just for how do I say this? It’s usually for to get experience. For some communities, especially communities of color, their summer internship that was paid, they were kind of counting on that money to help not only pay them their bills, but also help contribute to family bills. And that was all gone, right. So I can think of someone, her name is Lizabeth, just graduate high school from California. Mom’s a housekeeper that’s undocumented, dad works in the fields. Her mom got laid off. Dad’s not really working that much. And she needs to help her family. So we actually gave her a grant through the fund. And then I remember calling her and I’m like, well, at least you know, you’re going to start at Stanford, right, she got a full ride to go there. Come September, she said, Oh, actually, I deferred for a year, because I need to help my parents with bills. And um, you know, that’s heartbreaking. I’m really happy that we’re actually able to hire her. And now she’s helping run the fund.

Eric
I appreciate the way you’re drawing the picture for us around the inner interconnectivity of access, that it is not just getting the internship, it’s also internships that are accessible, and accessible in terms of all the ways things need to be accessible. What advice do you have for folks who are listening to who are inspired? What else needs to be done in this field? Perhaps not by you and your organization but where do you want to see other people taking action around this question of access equity?

Carlos
From like, an, a personal standpoint, it’s being a mentor, to, you know, one or two college students. That’s one thing a lot of people are asking, like, you know, you know, even if I can’t intern, I would like some mentorship. Donating to really funding your community. And then in terms of a structural standpoint, I really think this is a time for government, philanthropy and the private sector to come together for solutions. We actually had pushed the federal government to include more funds for youth in these COVID response bills. For those that don’t know, if you are dependent above 16, you did not receive a stimulus check back in April. So that’s, you know, another part. And as you all see, I’ve seen, the federal government has not really done much around youth, which is a shame. But I really think that’s kind of the response from a structural standpoint.

Eric
Carlos, as you share your story, so much of your work has been stepping in where institutions have failed, right? Whether it’s a federal government, whether it’s universities. Do you ever think of running for office? Do you ever think of stepping into those spaces so this doesn’t happen again?

Carlos
I do but not right now. First of all, politicians are very hard to work with. But I actually I’m going to push back on your question because there is this thought where if you want to create change, you have to be a politician. But I look at someone like Dolores Huerta, right, who, you know, did organizing for agricultural workers. And I would argue she’s had more of an impact in America than a dozen members of Congress combined. So up until this point, I have been able to create change within the federal government, as a private citizen.

Eric
So if you could not be doing what you’re doing now – but could do anything – what would that look like?

Carlos
Growing up, I either wanted to be a lawyer or an admissions counselor. So those are two things I do like, and actually I really don’t know. I think there is this thing in our culture about like, super professionalism, where like, you start something, and you already have this thing about the next thing, right? And that’s not how I work. Like, yeah, I think it’s good to have goals and, and know a sense of direction, right? of where you want to go. But I genuinely love what I do. Because people always ask me that, like, what’s the next thing? What’s like, you know, are you one of those you know, those people that like, they graduate, they do like this really nice fellowship and this and then they run for office. That’s not I don’t see this as a stepping stone.

Eric
So, Carlos, we’re going to end with with with a lightning round of questions. And the goal here is to hear a little bit about how you think about your life and a little bit more about you. So first, if you sat down with yourself 15 years ago, so young Carlos? What would you tell yourself?

Carlos
I would tell myself to, you know, never forget to enjoy life. I think because of the situations and circumstances I was in middle school and with poverty, I was so focused on school extracurricular activities, and I sometimes forgot to just enjoy being a kid. And I regret that.

Eric
If you could sit down with yourself 15 years from now, what would you want to ask yourself?

Carlos
Did I do the work fearlessly?

Eric
Tell me about your ideal Saturday, Saturday, we’ve got nothing else scheduled. What would the day look like?

Carlos
The day would look like me going into Rock Creek Park, which is a big park here. And just walking, meditating, coming back, eating some good food because I love eating my feelings, and then hanging out with friends and then ending the day watching Netflix.

Eric
Who is someone who inspires you?

Carlos
Shirley Chisholm.

Eric
And why? What is it about her?

Carlos
You know, she grew up in a time – I mean, it’s always been tough being a black woman, but especially back in the 60s and 70s. And she was fearless. You know, she very much talked about. If you don’t have a seat at the table, make your own table. She dared to reimagine a different society. And you know, thanks to her nonstop advocacy, both as an advocate and as a member of Congress. Our society is better for that.

Eric
My final question, if you had an ice cream sundae named after you, what would be on it?

Carlos
Mango, plantains, nuts. And start by asking

Eric
mango plantains and strawberry ice cream. I love it. So for those who are listening, and are inspired by your work, how can they find out more

Carlos
you can go on pear introns. org, you should definitely follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. Our handle is just Pay Our Interns. And you know we share stories we provide paid internship opportunities and other ways to engage.

Eric
Carlos, it’s been such a pleasure to talk to you, I want to lift up just a few notes of appreciation as we end there are three things that you lifted up in your conversation I think are really important and that we don’t hear enough about. The first is this challenge of how we value lived experience as much as we value academic experience, and the wisdom that is shaped by cleaning a bathroom and raising a child and marching in the streets. The second is that who we are matters as much as what we do. There are so many folks out there leading social change who aren’t living it. And I love the challenge that you offer to yourself. And I want to extend that to our listeners. And finally, that the image I’m leaving with you is his little Carlos sneaking in with a light on his book, breaking all the rules by reading about Greek mythology and castles to know that you were a rebel. And that your rebellion was knowledge. The way that you rebelled was to grow and to learn and to challenge yourself. I think that’s a great way to live a life and it’s a great challenge for those of us listening to think about that sometimes justice is staying up late and reading a book. Thank you, Carlos for sharing your story. But most of all, thank you  for being who you are, you know,

Carlos
Thank you for having me.

Eric
To learn more about Echoing Green, go to echoinggreen.org. And don’t miss any of our episodes. Subscribe where you get your podcasts. And don’t forget to leave a rating so other listeners can find us. I’m Eric Dawson stay on course.

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